When was the last time you truly paused to think about what you were eating or drinking? We experience food and beverages every day, but how often do we really stop and consider the layers of flavor, the memories they evoke, or the cultural significance behind them? In a fast-paced world where we often rush through meals or sip drinks without a second thought, there's something powerful in slowing down and becoming mindful of how our senses shape our experience with everything from our morning coffee to a well-crafted beer.
On today’s episode, I’m joined by Michelle Turner, a dedicated Cicerone-in-training and passionate advocate for sensory awareness in beer. Michelle’s not just a beer lover—she’s someone who wants to push the boundaries of how we taste, evaluate, and connect with the world of brewing. She’s on a mission to help people unlock a deeper appreciation for what’s in their glass.
In our conversation, Michelle shares how diving into sensory experiences completely transformed her approach to beer. We also dig into the challenges of making beer judging more inclusive of diverse cultural experiences and how our individual backgrounds shape what we taste. Plus, she gives some great tips on how you can start your own sensory journey at home, whether you’re a seasoned beer enthusiast or just curious to try something new. Tune in, and get ready to see beer—and maybe even food—in a whole new light.
This interview has been edited for length and clarity
Stephanie Grant: Hi Michelle, thanks for joining me on the pod.
Michelle Turner: Hey, Stephanie, thank you for having me.
Stephanie: Of course! We are going to dive into our Sensory September sessions that we did last month in the community. I am so excited to talk about this and recap everything that happened because I thought it was such a wonderful experience. I'm already ready to do more sensory sessions. So, the first thing is, let's talk about why sensory awareness is important, and how does it help you enjoy beer more?
Michelle: Why is it important? Well, I think it's important because we are governed by our senses, right? What we taste, what we smell—that's how we function through the world. So just being focused on specific things, like food or beer, brings us closer to that element, using the senses we already use. It’s fun to dive in and really get closer to these things.
Stephanie: Yeah, I felt like I got closer to beer during those sessions. I was able to gain more familiarity with the styles we were diving into and the distinction between them. Even when I think about eating those... not figs... they weren’t figs, not prunes... dates!
Michelle: The dates, yes.
Stephanie: Yes, when we were eating the dates and comparing them to raisins—that type of comparison we did in the community was so fun and helped me learn more about the ingredients, not just the beer. As someone who loves to cook, that was a bonus! In our first session, you emphasized the importance of recognizing flavors we've tasted or smelled before. Could you elaborate on how this practice sharpens our ability to identify flavors in beer?
Michelle: Reflecting on how I got started, it was because I was studying for my Cicerone. People would say, "Here’s how this beer should present itself," and outline the flavors you should get. Often, I’d think, "That's nice, but I don't know what that flavor is." I wasn't connected to certain ingredients based on my personal experience. So, I realized there were two elements to it: one, understanding what people say I should taste in these ingredients, and two, connecting it back to my own experiences.
You can't just tell me, "This tastes like chocolate," when there are so many kinds of chocolate. Maybe I don’t eat dark chocolate, but I’ll start with that and expand from there. So I thought the best approach was to go directly to the ingredients. If you tell me something tastes like chocolate or caramel or toasted bread, I’ll go and toast some bread to get more familiar with that flavor. That's the thing about sensory—we don’t spend a lot of time with it. We kind of take it for granted. When we eat, we just think, "Oh, that tastes good," but we don't really reflect on why or what it reminds us of.
Studying helped me be more mindful of what I was tasting, both in ingredients I knew and new ones. It also expanded my sensory awareness in everyday life. Like, I was drinking water from the faucet the other day and thought, "That tastes like dirt." And I’m like, "It probably always tasted like dirt, but now I’m more aware of it."
Stephanie: Yeah, that’s such a great point. Now, I'm thinking about how mindful we should be. Also, Michelle talked about how she doesn’t know what honeysuckle smells like, which I found so interesting. I grew up picking honeysuckles off bushes. You take the flower, pinch off the bottom, and there’s nectar you can suck out—it’s sweet. Next time we’re together and I smell honeysuckle, I’ll find one for you!
Michelle: I’d love that!
Stephanie: It's funny how we say something smells or tastes like this or that, but sometimes we don’t really know. Like figs—I couldn’t tell you what a fig tastes like outside of a Fig Newton!
Michelle: Exactly! And a Fig Newton is a dessert, not a fruit. It's so important to differentiate those things. The more we increase our exposure to different flavors, the more we can appreciate them.
Stephanie: Yes, that’s what it's all about—exposure. I heard it’s fig season, so I’m planning to rectify my fig situation! I want to explore those flavors people talk about in beer, tasting the foods directly to become more familiar with those flavors. And when you said earlier, “Why does it taste good?” it made me pause and think. We eat every day, but we often don’t take the time to acknowledge the experience. The same goes for beer—especially when we’re out with friends. I can’t count how many times I’ve gotten to the bottom of my glass without really noticing!
Michelle: Right, it’s all about being more mindful and present in what we eat and drink.
Stephanie: That’s one of my biggest takeaways from our sessions. Speaking of which, could you tell people what the sessions looked like?
Michelle: Sure! It was new for me, and I had participants with different levels of experience with beer, so I wanted to create something where everyone could get something from it. We focused on the main ingredients in beer: malt, yeast, hops, and complexity. Each week, I chose two beers that reflected opposite characteristics. For example, for malt, we tasted a Helles and a Doppelbock. The Helles gave us light, bready notes, while the Doppelbock had toastier, darker flavors. For hops, we compared herbal hops to citrus hops. For yeast, we explored phenols versus esters.
The final session was about complexity. We looked at a Guinness stout, which is a dark beer that surprises people because it’s actually light in body—far from what most expect when they see a dark beer.
Stephanie: Let me tell you how I had a Guinness after becoming a beer lover. Like, of course, I’ve had one before, and I didn’t really think much about it—I was just drinking it. But when I had a Guinness after becoming a beer lover, I was so... I don’t want to say disappointed, but I was surprised at the lack of complexity. I’ll say surprised.
Michelle: Yeah, I get that.
Stephanie: I don’t want to offend anyone at Guinness or any Guinness drinkers—
Michelle: It’s a good beer for what it is. But it kind of throws you off, right?
Stephanie: Yeah, it can. Especially when you start comparing it to other beers.
Michelle: And then, when you focus on the specific ingredients, it's interesting. Like, if someone says, "This has citrus notes," you start thinking, "Okay, but what kind of citrus? Is it really citrus, or is it just fruity?" Same with hops—like, is it really that bitter, or is it a different kind of bitterness? Being mindful and more aware helps you pick up the nuances.
Stephanie: Yes!
Michelle: And I think comparing beers is so helpful. You could sit with a beer and outline what you're getting—sweetness, bitterness—but when you compare it to something else, that’s when you notice, "Oh, this isn’t as sweet as I thought." You can start picking out more detailed nuances like "candy sweet" versus "chocolate sweet." And I remember Kat mentioning something during one of the sessions, which is what I was hoping for—that people would start making their own connections. Like, "This reminds me of this fruit I had."
Stephanie: Exactly.
Michelle: I wanted people to feel confident saying, "This reminds me of something," even if it's not on the standard flavor list. It’s so important to have those personal connections and not be boxed in by what the guidelines say.
Stephanie: That brings me to the BJCP (Beer Judge Certification Program) guide. We referred to it during our sessions, but it feels very American-centric. It doesn’t always account for foods from other cultures. So, how do we approach beer when our cultural experiences don't align with what's in the guide?
Michelle: That’s a great question. The first thing to remember is that the guidelines were written by a specific group of people, and that group needs to change. I can't fault them for not knowing, but what I can do is step up and say, "Here’s what I know from my experience." It’s important for people from different backgrounds to contribute to these guidelines. And if that’s not possible, maybe we create our own guidelines that reflect more diverse cultures and ingredients.
Stephanie: Yes!
Michelle: America is so diverse, and beer culture needs to catch up. The culinary world has already started to embrace this diversity, with chefs bringing dishes from all over the world. Beer should do the same. It’s not just about brewing—it’s about recognizing the cultural experiences people bring to drinking and enjoying beer.
We, as beer drinkers and judges, need to be more open and inclusive. We need to understand and appreciate the different ingredients people are using, rather than dismissing them just because they don’t fit into the traditional guidelines. It’s also about building confidence. I want to get to a place where I can taste a beer anywhere in the world and relate to the flavors in it, even if they’re not in the BJCP guide. That’s the goal—to see and appreciate what people from different cultures are doing with beer.
Stephanie: So, what’s helped you gain confidence at the judging table?
Michelle: Definitely working on my sensory skills. The more familiar I get with different flavors, the more confident I become. If someone tells me a beer tastes like tangerine, I’ve eaten enough tangerines to know if that’s true! It’s all about being prepared and open to new experiences.
Stephanie: Yeah, I remember during one of the sessions, you had a bunch of different apples, and I joked about how serious you were with all those apple varieties!
Michelle: (Laughs) Yeah, I like to be thorough! My dad always told me to never go into a situation unprepared, and that’s stuck with me. So, I pride myself on educating myself and broadening my perspective, which definitely helps when judging beer.
Stephanie: Let’s give the listeners some tips on how they can do sensory sessions at home. What would you suggest?
Michelle: I’d say start with your favorite beer or one you really like. Then, go to the store and grab a few more beers of the same style from different breweries. Sit with the beers, write down what you like about each one, and be mindful of what they remind you of. There’s no right or wrong answer—just focus on what the beer brings to you.
Stephanie: I also liked what you said during the sessions about being curious when you don’t like something. Instead of just saying, "This is nasty," ask yourself what you don’t like about it. Is it too bitter? Too sweet? Once you figure that out, you can start to explore more flavors you might enjoy.
Michelle: Yes, and a lot of times it’s about texture too. For example, I love strawberries, but I hate strawberry ice cream with chunks of fruit in it because of the texture. It’s not the flavor, but the texture that throws me off.
Stephanie: That’s interesting! I love stuff in my ice cream, but I get it—texture can make a big difference.
Michelle: Definitely. And that’s another thing to consider when you’re doing sensory work—don’t just focus on flavor, think about texture as well.
Stephanie: So, as we wrap up Sensory September, what are some of your key takeaways? And what’s next for you?
Michelle: One of my key takeaways is that I love sensory work! It’s such a rewarding experience to help people explore their senses and discover more about themselves. I also learned that sensory work is ongoing—it’s not just about studying for an exam. It’s part of who we are. In the future, I’m working on continuing my studies for the Cicerone exam and possibly hosting more sensory workshops. I want to bring new experiences to people and help them connect with beer in a deeper way.
Stephanie: I’m so excited for what you’re doing, and I can’t wait to see what’s next! Thank you for bringing this to the community.
Michelle: Thank you for having me! I really enjoyed it, and I’m looking forward to doing more.
Stephanie: Awesome. Thank you all for listening!
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